Category: Interview
24.05.2023.

Boris Zimin is a Russian businessman and public figure, philanthropist. Co-founder of the Zimin Foundation, which supports Russian non-profit educational projects in the field of education, protection of human rights and freedom of speech, as well as research in the field of natural sciences). He was the son of Dmitry Zimin (1933–2021), the founder of Vimpel-Communications (Beeline trademark).

Since 2011, Boris Zimin, the main public sponsor of Alexei Navalny and the Anti-Corruption Foundation, paid for the emergency evacuation of Navalny from Russia to Berlin in 2020. Provides financial support to politician Ilya Yashin and other political prisoners. After the start of the full-scale military aggression, the Zimin Foundation opened several programs to help refugees from Ukraine and Russia, intended for scientists, students and journalists. Member of the Anti-War Committee of Russia and the Russian Action Committee, member of the board of directors of the Boris Nemtsov Foundation.

In September 2022, the Ministry of Justice of the Russian Federation added Zimin to the register of individuals - "foreign agents", at the beginning of 2023 he was put on the wanted list by the Russian authorities on charges of financial irregularities. Zimin is sure that he is being persecuted for political reasons. He left Russia in 2004. The correspondent of "Svoboda" met with Zimin in Berlin.

- You have been in Berlin for some time. Do you have something new organized here?

The process of de-Stalinization has not yet passed, and without it it is impossible to carry out de-Putinization

–No. I was formed here now quite by accident, I lived in different places, for example, in Cyprus, in Israel, and I do not live in Berlin, but I appear here for some personal reasons, and the activities of our foundation are not related to the place where, for example, I am treated or live. There is simply no money for new projects now. Our old projects, for example, "Enlightener" or "Editorial Board", continue, but there was a war, and we are now spending a lot on refugees, on helping Ukraine and Ukrainians, as well as on helping Russian refugees.

- Here in Berlin, there were many Russian journalists who left Russia, and their situation is still quite problematic, although they are all active. Is it at all part of your plans and intentions, even if there is no money, to understand what exactly should be supported in the media that are outside of Russia? What are your values, personal orientations, if any?

Russia is now the loneliest country. There are no sympathizers

- I don't think you need to support the media. Because if journalism is not supported by the public, then it is not in demand. And this would be very bad, but it still seems to me that there is demand, it can change, but one way or another, of course, it is not worth replacing demand. It's good when there are funds and managers on the market who are able to start new projects, but it is unlikely that it will be right to constantly finance unprofitable media, replacing the market, replacing the public. In any case, this is not for us. And not to us at all, since neither I nor the Zimin Foundation are media managers and do not specialize in such investments. There were, however, exceptions, but for that they are exceptions.

Another thing is the support of the journalistic community, journalism in general, concern for the quality of the environment. The already mentioned project "Editorial Board" is just about this. It all started with a rather narrow task (to support investigative journalists financially), and continued with a conversation about the quality of journalistic work, a discussion of the standards of the profession and many other interesting things, for which the market and the public would hardly willingly give money, and therefore we (the Zimin Foundation) value both the project and  our participation in it. But how, for whom and why to do a specific media project - this should be understood by journalists and media managers themselves.  They will understand that everyone is experienced and active, although the situation is very difficult: the point is not only that the Russian authorities are making a lot of efforts to cut off the population under their jurisdiction from information, to clog everything with their propaganda. If you are abroad, then little by little, but you lose connections and understanding of what is happening "there", and if you also think only "there" and what is "there", then you gradually break away from the surrounding reality, you live in an increasingly less permeable
 bubble. On the other hand, in Berlin, in Europe, there is actually enough Russian-speaking public. Or perhaps it is necessary to speak not only in Russian and live at least in particular in the interests of others? I don't know.
 How do you see the time after Putin, how will Russia recover (if it does)? In Germany, after the war, there was external rule. In Russia, he seems to have nowhere to come from. People are massively zombified. What, it remains to wait for generations to change?

- First of all, yes. And the process will be long. But, in addition to the example of Germany, there are other models, for example, Chile, Argentina or Spain ... And in Germany, denazification (an internal process, it cannot be carried out "from above", I refer here to the book by Nikolai Epple) did not begin very immediately after the war. - Yes, it began after the

capture of Adolf Eichmann by the Israelis in 1960, when, after publications in the press, children and grandchildren in Germany began to ask grandparents and parents: where were you at that time? Before that, there was a general lethargy, reflected, for example, in some of Fassbinder's films.

- Yes, you are right, there will be a generational process, it will come someday ... And I also believe in self-purification mechanisms. It's like in nature, for example, when in some river the infection goes somewhere, disappears ... But it takes a lot of time. The process of de-Stalinization has not yet passed, and without it it is impossible to carry out de-Putinization. I also do not believe that Moscow will be occupied... Yes, even if it is occupied, it will still not help much. Denazification and de-Putinization or "de-" something like that is an internal process, you need your own Thomas Mann, you need people who think about it.

The complication – perhaps unique – for Russia is that, in my opinion, Russia is now the loneliest country. There are no sympathizers. Not only literally all neighbors have a very bad attitude towards Russia, but there is no winner who would be interested in restoring the defeated rival. It seems to me that no country has had this. To this day, Japan is not so simple with its closest neighbors, but Japan is still a respected member of the international community, not least because of its winner. Everything is much worse in Russia, I don't see allies, friends who will lend a shoulder ... And this complication will significantly increase the time that must pass ...

- Have you previously had contacts with people who are actively present in the Russian government today?

- Probably not, but there was Yura Borisov, who soared to fairly high levels of power, now he is in charge of Roscosmos, and before that he was an even larger figure, Deputy Prime Minister for Armaments. I remember him. But the last time I saw him and talked to him was more than 10 years ago. He had a business before this career. Well, a man has chosen a state path for himself ... He is hardly the main villain there. But, unfortunately, he has cooperated and is cooperating with Putin, with his regime and, of course, will respond in one way or another. In general, some public problems can be solved only on the state floor (the government, the Central Bank), and in general it is both honorable and professionally exciting. The trouble is that the Russian power floors are captured by criminals and moral freaks.

- Do you believe that someone who is in power in Russia today is capable, no, not to change shoes after Putin, but is able in his mind to reformat his understanding of the future and the good for Russia and is able to serve it professionally? Not to Putin, not by oath to the new tsar, but otherwise, to give the state something for his recovery. Or there is no one at the top of the Russian world,  Except for hardened cynics, no?

- I have two thoughts on this. The first is that as long as we perceive the state as something that has almost a sacred meaning and consciousness, nothing good will happen. As long as we do not start laughing at the phrase "state interests", we will not build anything. The state cannot have any interests. The state is a set of rules, procedures and bureaucracy, subordinate to laws and serving the public,  and not "state" interests, he can have neither his own will nor his own interests. The state should be subordinate to society, not the other way around, and the other is that we are sure to see a significant part of the current bureaucracy in the service of the new regime (when and if). Everyone is not repressed, denazified, and maybe it will not come to that at all, and most likely, many of the "former" will take an active part in building a new Russia, which will not be beautiful for a long time, and they will, of course, represent some serious force in Russia. Simply because there is nowhere to get so many other officials, police officers, judges.


- In Germany after the war, there were no "other" people ...

- And it won't be here. Unfortunately, although I want something else, scoundrels in general will not be punished. How Stalin's executioners mostly died in their bed, surrounded by grandchildren and honor. Mostly. Not all, but basically, so are the current ones. They will not be able to take revenge, as no one has ever succeeded in doing this. As many Nazi leaders managed to evade responsibility,  Except for the top, which got, of course, but this is a small part of the criminals. In general, you don't need to count on revenge. To live in revenge is unprofitable, harmful.

- There is no positive in your reflections ...

–Positive? Everything will be, it just takes time. Now the main, first task, and what can be influenced, is the near and future future of Ukraine, which needs help, primarily militarily, which, however, is already happening in an unheard-of and (for me at least) unexpected volume. But not only this - in all senses (humanitarian, social and others) Ukraine has a huge number of problems, including corruption (this is probably "hereditary")... But now the first problem is the bombs that kill Ukrainians, and the troops of the invaders on the territory of Ukraine. We all need Ukraine to win a military victory. I would return my children, prisoners, refugees. And then everything else...

- How likely is the scenario of the collapse of Russia in your imagination?

If we had all been a little bit sharper, maybe there would have been no war

- Not really. Of course, there are centrifugal aspirations, but just as drops of water take the form of a ball, there are also some physical and energy factors that make it beneficial for Russia, all its parts, to be together. And the transport system, and the financial system, the system of budgets ("thank you" to Alexei Kudrin), and the interests of trade, and habits - everything is sharpened for unity. In the best case, Russia will be re-established as a real federation, when the regions determine the powers of the "center", and not as it is now. At worst, centrifugal forces will prevail, the country will crumble as a result of some epic idiocy in the "center". But Russia still has a fairly powerful "battery" (oil, population, remnants of the Soviet legacy) that can allow it to exist for a long time in the regime of Mordor, fading, but still capable of harming both its neighbors and (mostly) its population.

- You have been supporting Alexei Navalny for a long time. Do you see, looking back, mistakes in your public and, perhaps, unwittingly political activities?

- If at one time not only Alexei Navalny, Boris Nemtsov and a small number of brave people, but everyone else would have behaved a little differently, maybe there would have been no war. If we, the Dynasty Foundation, hadn't told ourselves that we were out of politics and avoided important things, valuing our projects, worrying about our grantees and employees,  If we were not afraid of complications, that we would be accused of political activity (and then there was no law on "foreign agents")... So, if we were all a little sharper, bolder, less afraid of this very policy, which can damage the business you are doing, maybe there would be no war, "says  businessman and philanthropist Boris Zimin in an interview.